Graham’s Response to Robert's
Comments on
Graham Lovelock's Comments on
Lieflock Line.
Suggested action needed is in italics.
a)
GRAHAM: Sarah
DUDMAN was christened on 18 Sep 1785 at Great Bedwyn (GB).
ROBERT: I have the source as Ken Gigg. Needs rechecking against
original PRs
for Great Bedwyn unless Ken can confirm that that is the source.
b)
GRAHAM: I have
Richard LOVELOCK (L) son of Sarah above christened 30 Apr 1809 not 1808.
ROBERT: This variation is already noted in Lovelocks_in_Wiltshire. Needs
rechecking against original Burbage PRs.
c)
GRAHAM: Same Richard died in Mar ¼ of 1889 (aged 79), but I know not
where.
ROBERT: This is presumably from the GRO Index. The Index will give the
Registration District. Needs checking against GRO Index to confirm
RD and
age at death.
GRAHAM’s response: The RD is Hungerford. I, like Malcolm, have
a record
of the burial of Richard on 6 Feb 1888, aged 79 at GB. My culling of
data from
the GRO Index dates back 10 or 11 years, so I guess my transcription
error, of
putting 1889, has been lurking there all that time.
Apologies for misleading everyone.
d)
GRAHAM:Charles L the son of Richard above married Mary Jane RUSS at
East
Grafton (EG) on 19 Jul 1877.
ROBERT: Agreed. The marriage detail (from Graham) is entered in
Lovelocks_in_Wiltshire.
Age and father match.
GRAHAM: I have no record of a marriage of a Charles at GB in 1872.
HOWEVER,
Charles was 43 in 1877, whilst his bride was only 26, so he could have
been a
widower - my notes from the EG Register do not record that he was.
Also, a
Charles was married somewhere in the Hungerford Registration District
in the
Jun ¼ of 1872.
ROBERT: My understanding is that 'widower' is not always entered in the
marriage record even if he was, which certainly seems likely. However,
we have
no earlier marriage of a Charles L. in Wiltshire that fits at his time.
Nor can
I find any Hungerford RD marriage of a Charles L. in 1872 in our
combined data
for Wiltshire so presumably he was married in a parish of that RD not
yet
researched. I assume that Graham has extracted some GRO Lovelocks. I
actually
also have quite a few via Gwen. It would be useful to combine our
GRO
extractions. Yes?
GRAHAM’s response: No more enlightenment to offer, but will
forward you
my GRO data (in case it proves of any use) in due course, Robert,
unless
someone else is able to volunteer to do the collation?
e)
GRAHAM: I believe the Charles L/Sarah Ann marriage you have captured is
that of
Charles the son of James L and Honor Gigg. I do not know when or where
they
were married, but that Charles would have been 23 or 24 in 1872, and
the
couple's first child Walter John Edward L was christened on 15 Jun 1873
in GB.
ROBERT: I'm a bit confused on this one. What does 'captured' mean?
There are
certainly two children born to a Charles & Sarah Ann L in 1873
& 1875
in Great Bedwyn. But it's debatable who this Charles is. Presuming he
was at
least 18 when he married in 1872, he must have been born before 1854.
That
could be Charles bn abt 1852 s. John and Jane Chouls; Charles bn abt
1851 son
of Daniel L & Ann Chouls; Charles bn 1848 son of James L &
Honor Gigg;
or Charles bn abt 1846 son of William L & Lucy Hillman. We really
need the
marriage to work that out. I think we need to apply for the
full
marriage certificate for the Charles Lovelock who married in
June Q 1872
in Hungerford RD. Do we have the GRO reference number?
GRAHAM’s response: All I mean by “captured” in this instance
is
“recorded”. Colloquialisms confuse, as ever. No GRO Reference Number
I’m afraid
– when I gathered my GRO data I was doing it more from a statistical
and
demographic position of interest, as I had traced all the Lovelocks I thought
I was interested in (this was before I found any other Lovelock
researchers
sharing a common line). Further to the
Charles who’s the subject of this piece: from the 1881 Census he was
resident
(spelling his surname with the final “e”) in Farm Lane, GB with Sarah A
and
Walter J E, ages 32, 28,7; also in Farm Lane were James and Honor
Lovelocke;
according to my notes no birthplaces were quoted; in the 1891 Census
Charles,
Sarah, and Edward (sic) were at 91 Brown’s Lane, ages 41, 39, 17; also
with them
were sons Henry 8, Albert 5 and Ernest 2; all born in GB apart from
Sarah from
Lamborne. Not easy to dig all the bones out of that, but you can see
the
conclusion I came to. Is Sarah being of Lamborne a clue to the marriage
location? Not according to the Lovelocks_in_Berkshire data that you
have
assembled. And in case you have dived to the GB records, you will have
found
there are no baptism records for Henry, Albert and Ernest. However,
from my GRO
data I can confirm the following Births in the Hungerford RD: Charles
Henry - 4th
¼ 1882, Frederick Albert - 4th ¼ 1885, Ernest William - 3rd
¼ 1888. Now, if Charles was the son of James as I suggest, you might be interested to
note that in the 1881 Census James was recorded as a Wesleyan Preacher.
Perhaps, then, the three younger sons of Charles were baptised in a
Methodist
church? Do we have any easy access to
Non-Conformist records to close that one out?
f)
GRAHAM: Re Thomas L c: 7 Aug 1836: he married Harriet CHOULES on 2 Aug
1862 at
EG, and was buried on 1 Sep 1869 at Wilton. They had three children:
Ellen c:
30 Nov 1862, Charles c: 30 Apr 1865, and James c: 12 Jul 1867, all at
Wilton.
ROBERT: Agreed re marriage of Thomas L. and Harriet Choules. Age is
close
enough – he may have lied anyway – and father is correct. However, I
don’t have
the records for the baptisms of the children or the burial in Wilton in
the
combined Lovelocks_in_Wiltshire data. Can we confirm the source for
these
please? Are there other Lovelock events in Wilton?
GRAHAM’s response: Ooops!! I’ve been hasty with my typing and
not proof
read sufficiently. Thomas was buried at East Grafton, but was stated to
be “of
Wilton”. Ellen’s Baptism was also at EG, her parents being described as
“of
Wilton”. Trying to determine my source for the Baptisms of the other
two
children (declared in the 1871 Census, when the family was resident in
GB, as
having been born in Wilton). I assume everyone realises this is the
hamlet of
Wilton a little north-east of East Grafton, and not Wilton the former
capital of
Wessex just west of Salisbury?
g)
GRAHAM:Mary L c: 7 Jul 1839 married Oldin MITCHELL on 20 Oct 1883 at GB.
ROBERT: I'm not sure about this one. The age is well out. She should
have been
45 in 1883 not 38. She could have lied I suppose. Father is correct.
Note that
this entry also appears in the LDS Vital Records-British Isles
Marriages for
Great Bedwyn 1754-1895 (see Lovelocks_in_Wiltshire data) as Aldin not
Oldin
Mitchell. Witnesses were Charles and Mary Lovelock which is odd.
Charles could
certainly be her brother but who is Mary L?
GRAHAM’s response: I assumed she lied. I also assumed Charles
to be her
elder brother, and therefore the man at my comment d) above who married
Mary
Jane RUSS, hence the other witness was, I assumed, Mary’s sister-in-law
Mary.
h)
GRAHAM: Daniel L b: Abt 1845 married a Jane Smith. They had two
children:
Frederick J b: Abt 1877, and Alice S b: Abt 1880. Alas, at the moment I
can not
trace the provenance of these facts so you may wish to ignore them.
ROBERT: I will look forward to Graham finding the source. But sounds
like it
might be from a census. How much census stuff do we all have
between us? Can
we collate sometime do you think? I believe we have the complete 1851
census
for Wiltshire.
GRAHAM’s response: A little further forward – Daniel was
baptised at
East Grafton on 14 Jul 1844. He is recorded as “the son of Richard and
Amelia”.
Dear Amelia, or Millicent, or Matilda, or Milicent, as she was
variously
recorded. I have a note that Frederick and Alice were born in
Marlborough, but
there is nothing late enough in the Lovelocks_in_Wiltshire file. Still
searching …
i)
GRAHAM:I have so much information on Richard L and Jane Wyle and their
descendants that I have attached a separate File("Rich&Jane").
ROBERT: This is a wonderful addition to what we have. But I'm not clear
on how
this Richard fits into the Lieflock line. The baptism entry that Graham
supplied was:
1847 Jul 16 Richard son of Richard and Amelia Lovelock in East Grafton
Who is the Richard L. who married Amelia?
GRAHAM’s response: See my response above. Amelia is Millicent
Fribbence, and therefore the Richard you ask about is the son of Thomas
L and
Sarah (nee DUDMAN). I will admit it’s a
little easier to appreciate if you have the various Census Returns and
a map to
hand. I can place Richard and Millicent for you in every Census from
1841 to
1881, and her in 1891 (Richard having died by then).
j)
GRAHAM: Richard L and Millicent FRIBBENCE had one more child: Hannah b:
Jul
1852 at EG, m: Charles CHAMPION 5 Sep 1874 at EG.
ROBERT: I have the entry:
1852 Jul 30 Hannah daughter of Richard and Amelia Lovelock in East
Grafton (also supplied by Graham).
Are Amelia and Millicent the same person? Did Richard remarry perhaps?
GRAHAM’s
response: I
think you can
guess the answer to this one!
k)
GRAHAM: William
L c: 6 Jan 1811 was bur: 17 Sep 1892 at EG.
ROBERT: Agreed. He was aged 83 so born abt 1809. The date of baptism is
1811
but he could have easily been born 1809/10.
l)
GRAHAM: Mary
Ann the daughter of William above m: Stephen MARSHALL 28 Oct 1852 at EG.
ROBERT: Agreed. Age and Father match.
m)
GRAHAM:I have so much information on George the brother of Mary Ann
above that
I have attached another separate File ("Geo&Sarah").
ROBERT: Wonderful additional material. As I have no way of knowing all
the
sources for the info, I have entered with Graham as the source. Any
queries can
then go to him! The only variation I have is George L. bp 27 Dec 1835
at Great
Bedwyn not Grafton. This is what we have in the Lovelocks_in_Wiltshire
data.
GRAHAM’s response: Another apology – George was born at
Grafton,
according to his 1891 Census declaration, but I agree he was baptised
at GB.
This is consistent with two other GB baptisms of William and Lucy’s
children in
1834 and 1841 when the parents were described as “of East Grafton”,
although
the absence of the words in the 1835 and 1838 entries could certainly
indicate
that they moved.
n)
GRAHAM:John the brother of George above died in the Jun ¼ of 1928.
ROBERT: I assume this is from the GRO Index. Do we know what
registration
district?
GRAHAM’s
response:
Hungerford RD.
o)
GRAHAM: Hannah Maria the sister of John above was actually born at EG
not GB.
ROBERT: I have altered this. But I'm curious how we know that. From a
census
perhaps?
GRAHAM’s response: Partly – I based it on the GB Register
entry
declaring William and Lucy to be “of East Grafton”, but it is confirmed
by the
1861 Census Return.
p)
GRAHAM:Frederick the brother of Hannah Maria above died in the Jun ¼ of
1843.
ROBERT: I assume this is from the GRO Index. Do we know what
registration
district?
GRAHAM’s
response:
Hungerford RD,
yet again.
q)
GRAHAM: Elijah
the brother of Frederick above has been omitted. This is the one you've
recently been corresponding with Janet and Jeremy over, so I am
presuming that
I do not need to re-supply the data.
ROBERT: Already altered.
r)
GRAHAM: William
L the son of John L and Jane CHOULS was c: 8 Feb 1846 at EG.
ROBERT: Agreed. Amended.
s)
GRAHAM: Elijah
the brother of William above was c: 26 May 1848 at EG. Although his
birthplace
varies in the Census Returns the EG Baptism Register is quite definite
that his
parents were "of East Grafton".
ROBERT: Agreed. Janet and Jeremy had him baptized in Wilton. Have
amended.
Birthplace is less clear. The 1851 census says Great Bedwyn. This might
be an
error unless he was for some reason born in Great Bedwyn. It's of
course
possible he was born a year or so before he was baptized when his
parents were
then living at Great Bedwyn – or maybe they were just visiting. Have
noted.
t)
GRAHAM: George
the brother of Elijah above was c: 8 Sep 1850 at EG (born at Wilton).
ROBERT: Agreed. The 1851 census says he was born in Great Bedwyn but
baptism
entry says parents were of Wilton. Have noted.
u)
GRAHAM: John L
and Jane CHOULS had two more children: Charles c: 29 Oct 1852 at EG
(born at
Wilton), and Emily c: 24 Mar 1857 at EG (born at Wilton).
ROBERT: Agreed.
v)
GRAHAM: Eliza FISHER's mother's christian name was Ann.
ROBERT: Do we have a source for this please?
GRAHAM’s response: Yes – the
1841 Census Return for West Grafton which records Stephen and Ann
Fisher,
together with George and Eliza Lovelock, son-in-law and daughter, and
grandson
George Lovelock.
w)
GRAHAM:Elizabeth daughter of Eliza above was bur: 15 Mar 1840 at GB.
ROBERT: Agreed. I have two dates for this burial. Mar 15 and Mar 17,
1840. The
data is from Malcolm L. Can we confirm which is correct?
x)
GRAHAM:George
the brother of Elizabeth above was married in the Dec ¼ of 1858, and
had two
children: Sarah Ann b: Abt 1865 and William b: Abt 1869, both at West
Grafton
(WG).
ROBERT: Married to whom? I only have baptisms in West Grafton to 1841
(from Ken
Gigg) in Lovelocks_in_Wiltshire. Can we please have additional ones
extracted from West Grafton please and years searched?
y)
GRAHAM: George L and Eliza FISHER had a second Elizabeth b: Abt 1849 at
GB.
ROBERT: Do we have a source for this please? Not baptized at
Great
Bedwyn.
GRAHAM’s response: She was recorded as being 2 years old in
the 1851
Census Return for West Grafton, and the GRO Index yields a birth being
registered in Hungerford RD in the 1st ¼ of 1849. GB was
quoted as
the place of birth for the whole family.
z)
GRAHAM: George L and Eliza FISHER had an additional seven children:
Jane b: Abt
1853 at WG, Susannah b: Abt 1855 at WG, Thomas b: Abt 1859 at WG,
Daniel b: Abt
1864 at GB, Fanny b: Abt 1865 at GB m: John James FISHER 3 Nov 1885 at
EG,
Charles b: Abt 1868 at GB, and Elijah b: Abt 1871 at WG.
ROBERT: That's excellent. But no baptisms? I assume all this is
therefore from
a census? But which census? I actually found the baptism of
Fanny in
East Grafton:
1868 Feb 12 Fanny Daughter of George and Eliza Lovelock of West Grafton
I also found the family in the 1881 census for Wiltshire:
Dwelling: Old Farm House Cottage
Census Place:Great Bedwin, Wiltshire, England
Source:FHL Film 1341310 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 1274 Folio 56 Page 3
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
George LOVELOCK M 64 M Gt Bedwyn Rel:Head Occ:Agricul Lab
Eliza LOVELOCK M 51 F Gt Bedwyn Rel:Wife Occ:Wife Of Agr Lab
Daniel LOVELOCK U 17 M Gt Bedwyn Rel:Son Occ:Railway Labourer
Fanny LOVELOCK U 15 F Gt Bedwyn Rel:Daur Occ:Domes Serv Out Of Employmt
Charles LOVELOCK 12 M Gt Bedwyn Rel:Son Occ:AgrLabPloughboy
Elijah LOVELOCK 10 M Gt Bedwyn Rel:Son Occ:Scholar
Henry J. BREWER 8 M Gt Bedwyn Rel:Boarder Occ:Scholar
Something
wrong
here. Eliza, George's wife, was born abt 1830. She could not have
married
George in 1838!! Did George marry twice??? Both times to an Eliza? I
believe
so. I went looking for the burial of his first wife and sure enough:
1844 Jul 13 Eliza Lovelock of West Grafton aged 26 years Buried in East
Grafton.
George's second wife, Eliza, was born abt 1830 and presumably married
George
abt 1845. All children after then belonged to his second wife also
Eliza. We
haven't yet located his second marriage.
That
still leaves
us looking for the source of Jane L. bn abt 1853, Susannah L. bn abt
1855 and
Thomas bn abt 1859. They presumably had left home by 1881. In the 1861
or '71
census perhaps?
GRAHAM’s response: You will scarcely believe this first piece:
George’s
second wife was also named Eliza Fisher !!! He married her at East
Grafton on 5
Sep 1846; she was 18. She was the daughter of a James Fisher, whereas
his first
wife was the daughter of Stephen as shewn above. The source of the
other three
children is the 1861 Census Return for West Grafton, and this time the
birth
place for the whole family (these three plus the second Elizabeth,
their sister
Ann and their parents) was given as West Grafton. Ages quoted for the
three
were 7, 5 and 2. The GRO Index yields corresponding birth entries for
Hungerford in the 2nd ¼ of 1853, the 4th ¼ of
1855 and
the 2nd ¼ of 1859.
aa)
GRAHAM:Ann CHOULS' mother's maiden name was Maria SMITH.
ROBERT: And presumably married twice. Do we have a source for this
please?
GRAHAM’s response: I do not understand the “And presumably
married
twice”. The source is the Froxfield Marriage Register which gives 26
Jan 1822
Charles Choules married Maria Smith.
bb)
GRAHAM: Sarah
daughter of Ann CHOULS above m: John SHEPPARD 21 Jul 1860 at EG.
ROBERT: Agreed.
cc)
GRAHAM: Thomas
brother of Sarah above m: Sarah Ann MILDENHALL 13 Nov 1869 at
Shalbourne, d: 15
Feb 1933 at Northop, Flint. This is Malcolm LOVELOCK's line, so again I
presume
you already have all the data from Malcolm.
ROBERT: Agreed and yes.
dd)
GRAHAM: Elizabeth sister of Thomas above was born at Crofton and died
at Little
Bedwin. She did not marry Edwin Waters (this is the Ken Gigg saga), but
m:
Henry HILLIER 1 Feb 1868 at EG.
ROBERT: Since Ken has still not supplied his source for his theory and
Graham
clearly has the source data, I'll go with Graham on this one. Age at
marriage
and father all match. But what is source please of Elizabeth being
born at
Crofton?
GRAHAM’s response: The EG Baptism Register records her parents
as being
“of Crofton”, and indeed they were recorded there in the 1841, 1851,
1861, and
1871 Census Returns.
ee)
GRAHAM: Mary
sister of Elizabeth above m: Albert HOLMES 8 Nov 1881 at EG.
ROBERT: Agreed. Age and father match.
ff)
GRAHAM:
Charlotte L c: 12 Jan 1823 m: George CHAMPION 12 Aug 1860 at EG
ROBERT: Agreed.
GRAHAM: bur 22 Aug 1886 at EG.
ROBERT: I can't locate this burial in East Grafton.
GRAHAM: She had an illegitimate daughter Mary L c:30 Sep 1855 at EG
ROBERT: Agreed
GRAHAM: who herself had an illegitimate son Charles Frederick b:Abt
1878 at WG.
ROBERT: I don't have any West Grafton baptisms after 1841.
gg)
GRAHAM: Thomas
the brother of Charlotte above bur: 30 Mar 1849 at EG
ROBERT: Agreed
hh)
GRAHAM:I note
the John L c: 17 Sep 1826 but also note that the Baptism Register
records him
as the "son of Phoebe Lovelock of Camberwell".
ROBERT: I actually couldn't make out the place name when I was going
through
the PRs. I thought it said "Cambr-sle" The only Camberwell I know is
in Kent. Does seem a bit odd.
GRAHAM’s
response: There
is a
Camberwell district in London.
ii)
GRAHAM:
Richard L m: Elizabeth CARTER 18 Apr 1825 at Lambourne, Berks not
Burbage.
ROBERT: Agreed.
GRAHAM: We can trace this line forward to at least 1995, and I have
attached
yet another File with the data ("Rich&Eliz").
ROBERT: Thanks Graham. You must have already sent me all that line.
jj)
GRAHAM: David L c: 13 Sep 1807 d: 4 Mar 1849 at Marlborough Bridewell.
ROBERT: Never heard of "Marlborough Bridewell"? Source please.
GRAHAM: He m: Martha YEATES 2 Sep 1839 at Pewsey.
ROBERT: Can't locate this marriage in Lovelocks_in_Berkshire.
GRAHAM’s response: “Marlborough Bridewell” was Marlborough
Gaol. I have
seen a copy of the Death Certificate acquired by Ken Gigg. Pewsey is in
Wiltshire, not Berkshire !! Bit of a problem here: I can not explain
why I have
the Marriage in Pewsey, whilst Ken has it in Easton Royal (ER).
Certainly the
GRO Marriage Index has the Marriage of a David in the Pewsey RD in the 3rd
¼ of 1839, whilst there are no Marriages of Lovelocks at all in 1839 in
the
Hungerford RD, which covers ER.
kk)
GRAHAM: Elizabeth daughter of David above c: 22 Sep 1846 at Pewsey, m:
Edwin
WATERS 11 Dec 1876 at Savernake, and d: 10 Jan 1915.
ROBERT: I don't have any Savernake events at all! Did Elizabeth die in
Savernake?
GRAHAM’s
response: No, according to Ken she died in Chisbury,
which is in Wiltshire. I’m afraid there are also some typographical
errors here
– I must have been flagging: she was born on 21 Sep 1846, in Pewsey, bp
at
Savernake on 19 Oct 1846 and died 22 Dec 1915. This should all be
confirmed by
Ken if he is consulted.
ll)
GRAHAM: Anne
Maria L c: 8 Jul 1810 had a second sp: James BURROWS, m: 19 Feb 1868 at
Burbage.
ROBERT: This is one of the Burbage events which Malcolm L. had but
which I
didn't. I'm not sure of the source of Malcolm's events. Mine were
extracted
from LDS Film 1279365. We need to compare sources and possibly recheck
the
source material.
mm)
GRAHAM:
Richard L c; 26 Sep 1733, bur: 7 May 1793 at Easton Royal (ER).
ROBERT: Seems reasonable on limited evidence. Again an area in variance
between
myself and Malcolm in searching registers. Source material really needs
re-checking.
nn)
GRAHAM: I know
of the marriage of John Eliat/Eliot on 15 Mar 1799 to Sarah L, but of
no proof
that she was the daughter of Richard L and Mary CHIVERS. I have not
tested for
any children: since she would have been 40 going on 41 at the time of
the
marriage children would have been unlikely, although of course not
impossible.
ROBERT: Agreed. Have not entered the marriage at this stage.
oo)
GRAHAM: I have Leaver (Leaber?) L c: 30 Sep 1768, not Dec.
ROBERT: Malcolm L, myself and the LDS Vital Records CDs all have
December!
GRAHAM’s
response: My
mistake.
pp)
GRAHAM: John L
c: 25 Dec 1739 was bur: 29 Dec 1779 at ER.
ROBERT: Seems reasonable on limited evidence. Again an area of variance
in
source material between Malcolm and myself that really should be
rechecked.
qq)
GRAHAM: Henry L c: 6 Sep 1741 was bur: 20 Oct 1741 at ER.
ROBERT: Neither myself nor Malcolm L found this burial in the PRs. Do
we
have a source for this please?
GRAHAM’s response: If the two of you can not find it, it must
be the
result of me misreading the film at Trowbridge.
rr)
GRAHAM: I note that you have John L c: 17 Sep 1826 the son of Phebe the
daughter of William L and Susannah GIDDINGS, a repetition of the entry
I
referred to at hh. above. I am inclined to think this second entry is
the
correct one.
ROBERT: I only have one John bp 1826 s. of Phebe d. of William L. &
Susannah Giddings. Where is the repetition?
GRAHAM’s response: The entry referred to at hh. above has the
same John
(ie c: 17 Sep 1826) as the son of Phoebe L the
daughter of William L and Elizabeth NEWMAN.
ss)
GRAHAM: William L and Susannah GIDDINGS had son Thomas b: Abt 1809 at
ER, who
had sp: Ann UNKNOWN.
ROBERT: Do we have a source for this please?
GRAHAM’s
response: Trying
to track
this down.
tt)
GRAHAM: Mary sister of Thomas above was actually Mary Ann and m: Edward
H
STOCKMAN.
ROBERT: Do we have a source for this please?
GRAHAM’s
response: Ditto.
uu)
GRAHAM: William L and Susannah GIDDINGS had son William b: Abt 1828.
ROBERT: Do we have a source for this please?
GRAHAM’s
response: Ditto.
vv)
GRAHAM: I
think there is some double-checking to be done on John L c: 2 Feb 1748.
We need
to bottom out the entry of 12 Feb 1748 that appears in the IGI, and
whether
there is a confusion with the burial on that date. My data is clear to
me but
the reason I think it is crucial to sort it out is because of the
baptism of
John the son of Thomas and Mary L "of Easton" on 2 Feb 1748 at
Wootton Rivers. I have niggling doubts now in my mind about Old and New
Style
dates, and won't be satisfied until I've made another trip to
Trowbridge. It
would be very nice if there turned out to be two sons of Thomas and
Mary named
John, because this could explain the John L "of Wootton Rivers" who
married Elizabeth HANCOCK at Burbage on 12 Oct 1777, and incidentally
tie in
lots more LOVELOCKs to the LIEFLOCK Line.
ROBERT: I put a note on this subject in Lovelocks_in_Wiltshire:
The IGI has a baptism of John Lovflok 12 Feb 1748 son of Thomas and
Mary.
Only the burial for this date was located in the parish register.
I have Elizabeth Hancock married to John Lovelock s. Stephen L &
Mary
Elford plus children all born in Wootton Rivers. This is what Malcolm
L. had I
believe.
ww)
GRAHAM: John L c: 21 Aug 1723 was bur: 13 Nov 1799 at Milton Lilbourne.
ROBERT: Do we have a source for this please?
GRAHAM’s response: The PR has “sen” (for senior) in the entry,
which
led me to believe it was the burial of the John c 1723. The detail of
the entry
itself is confirmed by the Wilts FHS published transcript.
xx)
GRAHAM:
Elizabeth HOOPER was bur: 1 Jul 1831 at GB.
ROBERT: Agreed.
yy)
GRAHAM: Sarah daughter of Elizabeth above m: Samuel WAITE 17 Oct 1838
at
Buttermere.
ROBERT: This marriage was supplied by Graham. Was there any more of
the
marriage entry than shown in Lovelocks_in_Wiltshire to establish this
connection? Otherwise it would seem fairly tenuous although
possibly quite
correct.
GRAHAM’s response: I worked this one out from a combination of
sources:
the 1841 Buttermere Census Return records a household consisting of
Samuel
Waite, 20, Head, Sarah Waite, 20, Wife, John Lovelock, 4, together with
a
Thomas Foggins (Vockins in fact) and a James Woods. [Thomas eventually
married
James’ sister Maria, and they are one pair of my great-grandparents.]
The GB
Baptism Register records on 11 Dec 1836 the baptism of John, the
illegitimate
son of Sarah Lovelock. The 1851 Buttermere Census Return records
Sarah’s place
of birth as Bedwin.
zz)
GRAHAM:John son of Sarah above had a sp: Hannah UNKNOWN, and d: 21 Apr
1928 at
Inkpen, Berks. They had seven children: George b: Abt 1866, d: 27 Feb
1945 sp:
Ellen UNKNOWN child George - no details, Sarah b: Abt 1868, Ellen b:
Abt 1871,
d: 3 Jun 1946, John b: Abt 1873, Thomas b: Abt 1876, d: 29 Aug 1952,
Eliza b:
Abt 1880, and Kate b: Abt 1883, d: 8 Aug 1962. All events were at
Inkpen.
ROBERT: Depends on yy) above
GRAHAM’s response: The 1871 Census Return for Inkpen was used
here, as
well as information from Wills in respect of those for whom dates of
death are
quoted. The George for whom I have no details is mentioned in a Will.
The other
dates are all based on Census Returns, supported by GRO Index entries
for
George in the 1st ¼ of 1866, Sarah in the 2nd ¼
of 1868,
John in the 3rd ¼ of 1873, Thomas in the 3rd ¼ of
1876,
Eliza in the 4th ¼ of 1880, and Kate in the 2nd ¼
of
1883. All births were in the Hungerford RD. I have no corresponding
entry for
Ellen, and probably missed it as the 1871 Return gives her place of
birth as
Inkpen, as for all her siblings, and she was stated as being one month
old.
Curiously, the GRO Index does have the birth of an Ellen in the
Hungerford RD
for the 3rd ¼ of 1869.
aaa)
GRAHAM: John
L c: 9 Apr 1819 was bur: 12 Mar 1822 at GB.
ROBERT: Agreed
bbb)
GRAHAM:
Thomas brother of John above probably bur: 18 Feb 1869 although his age
is
quoted in the Burial Register as 47.
ROBERT: Agreed
ccc)
GRAHAM: The spouse of Susannah Ann daughter of Thomas above was James
FRENCH
ROBERT: Do we have a source for this please?
GRAHAM’s response: Trying to track this down.
ddd)
GRAHAM: James
L c: 15 Jan 1826 was bur: 14 May 1897 at GB.
ROBERT: Agreed.
eee) GRAHAM:
Honor GIGG's Mother's christian name was Elizabeth.
ROBERT: Do we have a source for this please?
GRAHAM’s response: The 1851 Census Return for Great Bedwin
records in Farm Lane: Elizabeth
Gigg, 66,
Head, James Lovelock, 25, Son-in-Law, Honor Lovelock, 24, Daughter,
Elizabeth
Lovelock, 4, Grand-daughter, and Charles Lovelock, 2, Grand-son.
fff)
GRAHAM: Charles the son of James L and Honor GIGG was bur:27 Dec 1923
at GB.
ROBERT: Agreed
GRAHAM: Sp was Sarah Ann UNKNOWN. They had five children: Walter John
Edward c:
15 Jun 1873 at GB,
ROBERT: Agreed except entry reads: 1873 Jul 23 (born 15 Jun 1873)
Walter John
Edward LOVELOCK Father: Charles LOVELOCK Mother: Sarah Ann
GRAHAM: Elizabeth Ellen c: 24 Jun 1875 bur: 27 Jun 1875 both at GB,
ROBERT: Agreed except the entry I have reads: 1875 Jun 28 Elizabeth
Ellen
Lovelock Aged 1 day
GRAHAM: Charles Henry b: Abt 1882 at GB, Frederick Albert b: Abt 1885
at GB d:
8 Aug 1915 in Belgium sp: Charlotte A UNKNOWN, and Ernest William b:
Abt 1888
at GB.
ROBERT: I searched for sources on these and came across:
1919 Jun 15 Reginald Ernest Henry son of Charles Henry and Mable
Gertrude
Lovelock (father in RAF)
in Great Bedwyn.
1913 Jun 1 Mildred daughter of Ernest William and Edith Lovelock of
Swindon in
Great Bedwyn
What was your source please Graham on these approximate births. I
assume
from a census.
GRAHAM’s
response: Yes –
see my
response at e) above.
ggg)
GRAHAM: William John L brother of Charles above sp: Flora UNKNOWN had
four
children: Frederick William b: Abt 1879, Walter James b: Abt 1880,
Flora b: Abt
1884 and Kate b: Abt 1887, all at Hungerford.
ROBERT: Source please?
GRAHAM’s response: The 1891 Census Return for Hungerford, when
the
whole family are recorded at a dwelling in the High Street, and the
1881 Census
Returns when the family were all apparently in the High Street in
Hungerford,
but Flora and the two sons were also recorded at her Father-in-Law’s
house in
Farm Lane, GB !!
hhh)
GRAHAM:
Richard L brother of William John above was Richard Henry L. Sp: Sarah
Frances
MEADHAM. They had six children: William John c: 16 Feb 1886 at GB bur:
3 Mar
1886 at GB, Thomas Henry c: 26 Jan 1887 at GB bur: 10 Mar 1887 at GB,
Francis
Henry c: 7 Dec 1889 at GB bur 10 Mar 1890 at GB, Rose Winifred Bertha
c: 3 Sep
1891 at GB bur: 23 Jan 1892 at GB, Oliver Richard c: 28 Nov 1893 at GB
m: Sep ¼
1919 Rhoda Mary UNKNOWN children William Oliver Edgar Richard c: 19 Sep
1920 at
EG and Joyce Mary c: 29 Mar 1925 at EG (born at Wexcombe), Edgar Henry
b: Abt
1897 at Bedwyn Common c: 14 Jan 1898 at Savernake m: Sep ¼ 1923 sp:
UNKNOWN.
ROBERT: Great stuff. Depends on fff) above
iii)
GRAHAM: Frederick Thomas L c: 5 Sep 1884 and Charles James L c: 5 Aug
1887 are
incorrectly entered as the sons of Richard Henry above and are actually
the sons,
already recorded, of Richard L and Millicent FRIBBENCE.
ROBERT: Sorry. Can't follow this one at all. Richard L and Millicent
Fribbence
were married in 1833!!?? I don't have this baptisms recorded anywhere??
GRAHAM’s response: Sorry for causing confusion here. What I
was trying
to say was that Richard Henry L and wife Sarah Frances did not,
so far as I am aware, have sons Frederick Thomas and Charles James.
However, I have
got my Richard’s mixed up here, and you have rightly pointed out the
nonsense
of my assertion. What I should have suggested was that
they were
the sons of Richard L and Jane (nee WYLE), that Richard
being the
son of Richard L and Millicent FRIBBENCE.
jjj)
GRAHAM: Jane L b: 21 Sep 1859 was actually Sarah Jane.
ROBERT: Do we have a source for this please?
GRAHAM’s response: To be truthful, this is based solely on the
1861
Census Return where, at 1 year old, she is identified as “Sarah J”. In
the GRO
Index the only corresponding birth is for a Jane, she was Jane in the
1871
Census Return, and when married in 1880 was simply recorded as Jane.
Perhaps
after all the 1861 entry was an aberration on the part of her parents.
kkk)
GRAHAM: John
L c: 4 Jun 1862 was bur: 30 Mar 1904 at GB.
ROBERT: Agreed
GRAHAM: I have attached data on his descendants in a separate File
("John&Sarah"). You will wish to note that his grandchildren and
later generations are all still alive.
ROBERT: Entered with thanks. I've put Graham L. as "source".
lll)
GRAHAM: George L b: 21 Jul 1864 and Sarah Ann GRACE had six children:
Elsie
Grace b: Abt 1890 at GB m: 3 Jul 1909 at Wilcot Frederick LEE; Lily b:
Abt
1891; Frederick Charles b: Abt 1893 m: 1 Aug 1917 at Wilcot Elizabeth
Rose
BRISTOW and d: 1979 with two children: Bertrand C b: Abt 1920 m: 1941
Anna E
MCGIVERN d: 1944 in Italy with daughter still living, and Isabel Rose
b: Abt
1924 m: 8 Mar 1945 at Wilcot Ezra Green TRUMP; Walter George b: Abt
1895 d: 27
May 1918 in France; Henry James Grace b: Abt 1897 m: 13 May 1911 at
Wilcot
Fanny WILTSHIRE; Frances Ellen b: Abt 1901 m: 28Jul 1923 at Wilcot
Charles
WILTSHIRE d: 1969.
ROBERT: I didn't have Elsie or Henry James Grace (Grace is most
unusual!). Do
we have a source for these please Graham? Malcolm L has Walter
George L.
dying in Dardenelles, Turkey not France.
GRAHAM’s response: A bit to add
here: the GRO Index records the birth of an Elsie in the Hungerford RD
in the 4th
¼ of 1889. The 1891 Census Return records Elsie, aged 1, with her
parents and
Uncle James in the household of her Grandfather James L at 79 Brown’s
Lane, GB.
All were recorded as having been born in GB. The Wilcot Marriage
Register has
“Frederick Lee 22 married Elsie Grace Lovelock 20, Fathers Matthew and
George”.
The Wilcot Marriage Register also has “Henry James Grace Lovelock 24
married
Fanny Wiltshire 21, Fathers George and Charles”, from which I have
deduced
HJGL’s birth: I do not have a GRO entry to match it to. With respect to
Walter
George L’s place of death, my information was taken from the
Commonwealth War
Graves Commission Website.
mmm)
GRAHAM:
Alfred James L b: 5 Aug 1866 m: 1891 Esther UNKNOWN and had four
children:
Emily Maud Marie c: 29 Apr 1894, Beatrice Lilian c: 2 Jul 1896, Victor
Hamil c:
18 Sep 1903, and Muriel Olive c: 17 Jan 1906 all at GB.
ROBERT: Agreed
nnn)
GRAHAM: Ellen Maria L c: 13 Oct 1869 had an illegitimate son Leonard
Stephen b:
13 Dec 1886 at GB, c: 2 Feb 1887 at GB.
ROBERT: Can't seem to locate Ellen Maria L. Who are her parents please?
GRAHAM’s response: Ellen Maria was the daughter of James L and
Honor
(nee GIGG). She was with her parents, 6 siblings and a cousin at 12
Farm Lane,
GB aged 1, born in GB in the 1871 Census Return, still in Farm Lane in
1881,
and the birth of an Ellen is in the GRO Index for the 3rd ¼
of 1869.
I have her birth date at GB recorded as 26 May 1869, which agrees with
the
Lovelocks_in_Wiltshire data.
ooo)
GRAHAM: For Thomas L c: 30 May 1790 I have 30 April, and he was bur: 20
Dec
1849 at Wootton Rivers.
ROBERT: My source is PRs from LDS Film 1279365. If your source
is the
same, we will need to recheck the registers to see which is correct.
Presumably
one of us made a copying mistake? I know the age for the burial is
correct, but
I feel attributing this burial of Thomas L. to Thomas bp 1790 is a
little
tenuous.
GRAHAM’s response: A mistake? Bet it was me! With respect to
the Thomas
buried on 20 Dec 1849, I did not find any trace of him in the 1841
Census
Return. Did anyone else?
ppp)
GRAHAM: For James L c: 24 Feb 1793 at Milton Lilbourne I have attached
a File
with more data ("James&Hannah").
ROBERT: Excellent additional material to this line. I assume Graham has
more
Pewsey events which he or someone has extracted from the parish
register than I
currently have showing on Lovelocks_in_Wiltshire. Any additional
material most
welcome!
I had a couple of queries re this material:
*I believe some of the Pewsey deaths may be burials
*I could not find the reference for the note: "Mary A. * was born
in
1836 in Bristol. She died 30 Sep 1916 in Pewsey, Wilts ..."
GRAHAM’s response: I sent a File with data I extracted from
the PRs to
James and assumed he had sent it on. If so, I have no more to add. You
are
right about the deaths being burials: a “feature” of the software I have used to store most of the data, I am
afraid. If I have a date of death as well it would normally be recorded
in a
note, which the data transformation process usually does capture. Mary
A’s
place of birth is quoted in the 1891 Census Return for Pewsey, where
her age is
given as 55. I agree that this is at odds with her age at death being
given in
the Burial Register as 88, and perhaps I have misread 80 as 88.
qqq)
GRAHAM: For
Mary L c: 14 Oct 1804 I have 14 Dec.
ROBERT: Same comment as for burial entry in ooo) above.